Jared Loughner DID NOT legally obtain a gun.
51 comments Jan 12, 2011 | Civil Rights, Permit to Carry, Politics
In news story after news story, I see the claim over and over again that Jared Loughner legally obtained his Glock 19 9mm handgun from Sportsman’s Warehouse on November 30th, 2010.
This is false. Jared Loughner obtained his gun by means of a felony.
Allow me to explain.
Sportsman’s Warehouse is a Federally licensed firearm dealer (FFL). They are required to obtain an ATF form 4473 for every firearm transaction they have. This form captures personal data about the purchaser, and that data is then used to preform a NICS (National Instant Criminal System) background check.
Jared Loughner lied on this form.
Question 11 – E on the current ATF Form 4473 is as follows:
Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
ATF Form 4473
Loughner MUST HAVE answered “No” to this question in order to process the background check.
We know by the testimony of those close to him, Loughner was described as a “pothead” and was rejected by the US Army because of his admitted marijuana addiction.
ATF Form 4473 continues:
I certify that my answers to Section A are true, correct, and complete. I have read and understand the Notices, Instructions, and Definitions on ATF Form 4473. I understand that answering “yes” to question 11.a. if I am not the actual buyer is a crime punishable as a felony under Federal law and may also violate State and/or Local law. I understand that a person who answers “yes” to any of the questions 11.b through 11.k is prohibited from purchasing or receiving a firearm unless the person also answers “yes” to question 12. I also understand that making any false oral or written statement or exhibiting any false or misrepresented identification with respect to this transaction is a crime punishable as a felony under Federal laws, and may also violate State and/or local law. I further understand that the repetitive purchase of firearms for the purpose of resale for livelihood and profit without a Federal firearms license is a violation of law.
Sporstman’s Warehouse did exactly what they are supposed to do. Accept the application as sworn statements, and run the background check (NICS) in good faith. They did just that.
Jared Loughner is the criminal, and was the day he bought the gun.
More laws is not the answer. Criminals do not follow the law.
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Excellent research Robbie. As has been the case with the leftist, communist, socialist, liberal, state run media, they shoot their mouth off without bothering to fact check anything that might deter their overall agenda. Until the media becomes more impartial and less left leaning, the sheep who listen to their crap are going to keep heading towards the cliff. Baaaaaa!
Is this a joke? “Liberal media”?? Anybody can lie on the form, as far as the seller was concerned it was a legal transaction and there is no way to prevent this from happening. I’m a gun owner by the way, I believe crazy people shouldn’t have guns but since that wasn’t the case here I unfortunately have to say the occasional shooting is a price we pay for 2nd Amendment freedom.
“Never let the truth get in the way of a good story”
A criminal who lied!?! What is this world coming to?!?!
Because marijuana is illegal in most states this is justification to “hone in” on this eh
.
I wonder though, is this question the same where marijuana is legal for medical purposes?
And, just keep turning it into a right vs. left deal…why?
How about the question being added, are you an alcoholic or do you abuse alcohol?
What does it mean “or any depressant”?
Alcohol is a depressant, yet the US has a plethora alcoholic gun toting fools, having legally obtained their guns.
I’m all about 2nd amendment rights!
I’m just sickened by the digging and digging by everyone to prove them selves right, to make it a whole left vs.s right issue and to spew hatred for one another, because they have differences.
Bottom line is, this guy was mentally ill, he didn’t get help, he shot and killed people and now everyone is looking to blame someone along with him, for the sake of causing more of a riff between left and right. That’s just as wacky as it gets, in so far as looking for ways to create more stigma in this country!
Thanks for the comment Len… I’m not sure if you were trying to be critical of my post or not, but I think you helped make my point.
Facts are the ATF form is what it is, and Loughner committed a felony by lying on it.
The only person responsible for Jared Loughner’s actions is Jared Loughner.
Assuming that Federal regulation of the intRAstate trade and use of marijuana is not an overreaching of the Interstate Commerce power (since that is the current status quo), then there is no such thing as a place where marijuana is legal for medical purposes – any use is illegal.
If you believe that the states can allow and regulate intrastate manufacture and use of marijuana, then the question still wouldn’t need to be changed, because if you are a legal user then you can honestly answer “no” – it only asks if you are an “unlawful” user, not if you are a user.
Under the second scenario, I assume that federal law would govern in the absence of state laws addressing the issue.
I think it’s a legitimate point to raise, considering the number of gun-banners I’ve seen crowing over how he “didn’t break a single law until he pulled the trigger,” and making it a central talking point of how he used a “legal” gun. When they lie, we have to point it out so that the lies are not the only thing the public hears.
Federal regulations state that any one in possession of illegal drugs are thereby prohibited to posses a firearm. States “cant” superceeds federal law, ther-go if you have pot the feds say you cant have a gun.
The ATF Form 4472 is a Federal form so the question about marijuana addiction or usage is asked by the Federal Government not a State entity. I work in a gun shop in California where medicinal use is legal but even with a script card for marijuana I cannot sell a gun to an individual because it is illegal by Federal law.
Marijuana is illegal in ALL states. It is a prohibited Schedule I drug under Federal law, Controlled Substances Act 21 U.S.C. Section 811. The Form 4473 is a Federal form.
State law is a different issue, and some state laws are in conflict with Federal law, but the DEA chooses to overlook it, generally. But they don’t have to.
Well Rob, I’m not trying to be critical, just saying that if we were to get into semantics, then alcohol is a depressant and a huge percentage of folks applying for and getting guns have lied too.
Abuse is abuse in my book. I don’t find one substance worse then the other. Just one is legal and one not. (although marijuana is legal in some areas, that’s why I asked how the form is for these areas)
Semi nit picking, to me anyway. And, I have a huge problem with people who drink and use guns…at the same time of course
So, I could get into all that, but I wont. I just really want to stress it isn’t a right vs. left matter, it’s a mental health issue, which was ignored (and we shouldn’t point fingers there either)
Getting his gun legally or not, he did this insane act period. He could have bought his gun on the black market.
God knows they’re out in there in droves and will never go away no matter who tries to change any laws.
So, is it really all that important that he lied on the ATF form? Or, is it more important that we come together as a nation by stopping the chasm and hatred between left and right? Cause it seems to be only getting worse.
Please Jen… Be Critical! I LOVE the first amendment. I was just saying, I wasn’t sure if you were.
Abuse is abuse… agreed…. I’m not speculating what should or shouldn’t be on the form. Simply saying the form is what it is.
I loath the right vs. left argument. First off, there are not enough facts about anything at the moment. The infinite speculation is nothing more than capitalizing on a national tragedy, which is contemptible.
I have not, and will not speculate or comment on why Loughner did what he did.
What I do is take facts, or perceived facts, and prove or disprove them.
In this case, I am taking the well circulated “fact” that Loughner bought the gun legally, and was legally carrying. He most certainly did not.
I will be keeping a close eye on the attacks on both the First and Second amendment because of a lunatics actions, but I will not speculate on anything without firm evidence. That much you can count on.
I really appreciate your comments!
That’s great then! We agree on a lot (except my name is “Len”, not Jen lol)
It’s a real hot bed right now, and we’re seeing far too many people “pridefully” posting accusatory and non-factual information in many forums, blogs, pages and etc…
So many want to be right, then think highly of them selves and opinions, based on mis-information.
But they’re only contributing more hate and widening the gap.
Thank you for sticking to and posting factual information.
There’s no arguing that technically he lied on the form, if in fact he was using around the time he filled the form out (just saying).
Reading that a friend called him a pot head or being rejected by the services because he admitted his use, also doesn’t mean that during the time of his application, that he was using. It’s still all pretty much speculation. There’s a good probability that he was using drugs when he filled out the forum, but only he knows for sure.
Some people quit and start up their addiction many times (in recovery it happens a lot)
Sorry Len! (not jen)
I can see your point that I am making an assumption about him maintaining drug use.
Friends who spoke to the AP said Loughner’s saying they smoked marijuana together every day.
I find it hard to believe that he magically went clean somewhere between high school, and now, with the numerous reports of his drug addiction.
If I find anything to support or deny that, I will post it, but currently, I think there is substantial evidence to enforce the supposition.
Well, since there are no laws on the use of marijuana in AZ, posession, sales, and cultivation, combined with the fact that marijuana is habitual, but not physically addictive like alchohal and other drugs I think this one gets by on a technicality.
It’s not state law, it’s federal law.
18 U.S.C. § 922 : US Code – Section 922
(3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled
substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances
Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
Addicts (alcohol included) are federally prohibited from owning or purchasing firearms.
If they ever decided to enforce it…
Hmmm I don’t see a federal law that prohibits the use of marijuana? And if someone says they are not addicted, and they believe that, then they answered the question honestly and did not lie on the form.
If they had worked their form something like “Do you regularily use illegal drugs” then I would agree with you that he lied. But since there is no law regarding the use of marijuana, only possesion, sales and cultivation you can’t be an illegal user. And if he didn’t believe he was addicted when answering that form, than he answered honestly.
It would be difficult to “use” marijuana without “posessing it”.
Been covered above by US code.
The Controlled Substances Act of 1970 (Title II of the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act of 1970) is the source for all legislation and enforcement concerning “drugs” in the United States. It is a Federal statute, therefore binding over all 50 States (ie. States cannot be less strict than Federal law).
Specifically citations:
Title 21 United States Code of Federal Regulations:
Part 1308.11: Schedule I
(1) Schedule I.—
(A) The drug or other substance has a high potential for abuse.
(B) The drug or other substance has no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States.
(C) There is a lack of accepted safety for use of the drug or other substance under medical supervision.” [20]
No prescriptions may be written for Schedule I substances, and such substances are subject to production quotas by the DEA.
…
(30) Tetrahydrocannabinols 7370
Meaning tetrahydrocannabinols naturally contained in a plant of the genus Cannabis (cannabis plant), as well as synthetic equivalents of the substances contained in the cannabis plant, or in the resinous extractives of such plant, and/or synthetic substances, derivatives, and their isomers with similar chemical structure and pharmacological activity to those substances contained in the plant, such as the following:
1 cis or trans tetrahydrocannabinol, and their optical isomers
6 cis or trans tetrahydrocannabinol, and their optical isomers
3, 4 cis or trans tetrahydrocannabinol, and its optical isomers
(Since nomenclature of these substances is not internationally standardized, compounds of these structures, regardless of numerical designation of atomic positions covered.)
We can fix all these problems by passing one simple law. Let’s just make it illegal for anyine to violate a law. Such a law would make it illegal for criminals to commit crime! No more crime!
I love your brilliant idea about outlawing crime! I think we can apply that logic to poverty as well. I read an article that 100% of poor people don’t have Porsches (or health insurance), so I think we should give every poor person a car (or health insurance. There–no more poor people! It’s magical, liberal thinking!
There are some reports from others that knew him that he stopped smoking weed a few years ago. (and, actually got more crazy after he stopped) Would that still qualify him as “user of” after that amount of time?
He told 1 friend in 2008 that he stopped doing drugs… He was rejected from the army for drug use in 2009… Other friends say he never quit…
This is speculation, but I’d be willing to bet he had something in his system the day of the shooting.
I find it hard to believe with all the evidence present that he ever stopped his drug habit.
So, to be clear, you’re saying the legal process for obtaining a gun in Arizona allowed him to get the gun, but you’re saying he didn’t legally acquire it.
So the legal process for obtaining a gun fell through. It allowed a person committing a felony in the act of asking for the gun to *still get the gun*.
You’re basically arguing for stronger background checks in the article above. The existing background check failed to turn up that he lied on that question, that he was bounced from military service for drug use, therefore, it must be strengthened to be effective.
Quite a stretch of interpretation Mark…
The point is criminals and people intending to get guns will get them by whatever means necessary. In this case, a felony statement.
You could create a drug test, mental evaluation, state, local, and federal background checks, and you wouldn’t even slow them down.
Bottom line Loughner was not a law abiding gun owner at any time.
“Sporstman’s Warehouse did exactly what they are supposed to do. Accept the application as sworn statements, and run the background check (NICS) in good faith.”
So, obviously, the thing to do is NOT sell the gun UNTIL AFTER the statements are verified and the background check is run.
Sportsman’s Warehouse is a great example of why stricter checks are needed.
Sportsman’s Warehouse does not have the authority to question, interrogate, or investigate the validity of the statements. The applicant is under penalty of felony for false statements.
They take the data, enter it in to the phone-in NICS, and the NICS says, approved, denied, or delayed.
How about the Truth out there Sherrif Dupnik? Is that not the perfect name for that guy? I wish sheriff Joe would go kick his dumb azz!
In the moments after the tragedy, I thought the same thing. However, subsequent reporting has claims from friends that he had stropped drinking/smoking/drugs a year or so ago. Ironically that likely pushed him further down the descent into madness. In November 2010 when he filled out his 4473 he was probably telling the truth if his friends are to be believed.
-Gene
As stated above, a single friend has said that he quit in 2008. He was rejected by the US Army in 2009 because of drug use. Another friend who was called by Loughner days before the shooting stated that they “smoked weed every day”
The evidence seems to point otherwise.
Thanks for the comment.
I have friends who are anti-gun, and they can’t believe that prospective gun buyers lie on instant check forms. This relates to straw purchasers. It takes PSYCHIC ABILITY to spot a serial liar. No one can do this reliably if a buyer lies on his background-check form. There are always going to be liars who will buy guns. All the more reason for us (the law-abiding) to have guns lawfully.
Nice catch. So, all it takes to buy a gun in Arizona is to fill out an application? Is there any fact checking involved or do we simply take the customer’s word for it? Seems to me this application process is designed to allow the likes of Jared Loughner to slip right through. I wonder how that happened…
It’s not just filling out the form, and here’s your gun.
The data gets called into the NICS background check phone line. The store/seller gives in the items line by line. And the ATF either approves, denies, or delays the sale.
In Loughner’s care the check came back clean. He lied on the form, but there was no evidence provided by the background check to prove otherwise. Sportsman’s warehouse had no indication that Loughner was not prohibited from owning a gun.
Had the Army, his school, his family, his friends, or the local police taken any action on the wide array of disturbing behavior, the sale could have been prevented.
Someone should also tell Bill Maher that it is a felony for him to buy a gun.
I guess I would argue that maybe he’d argue that he isn’t addicted. A lot of addicts think that.
Just because a heroin addict may think that way does not make it correct to apply that reasoning elsewhere (at least two logical fallacies in that argument).
Heroin creates physical dependency which is what most people consider to be addiction. Pot does not (at least less so than caffeine) and is VERY easy to stop using even after long periods of heavy use.
I admit I like to smoke a lot in winter when there is less to do with my spare time, I like to watch more TV also, but when summer comes I quit entirely and find myself away from the TV out doing other things with my spare time at night.
I would argue I am far more addicted to fettuccini alfredo and pepsi than pot since I cant stop consuming those things but I do with pot regularly depending on how much free time I have.
“I guess I would argue that maybe he’d argue that he isn’t addicted. A lot of addicts think that.”
Nearly all smokers, for example. “Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to … any … stimulant … drug” would seem to apply to nicotine addiction.
This all started way before he went into sportsmans warehouse. If anyone would have had the sense to report him mentally deficient as a number of teachers said in the reports and as the college knew (much like the guy from VA Tech) this would have been reported somewhere. So if he lies on question 11f it would have been picked up by the ATF prior to approving him for the purchase of the handgun. If teachers and students talked about how crazy he was and how he acted in class and how they knew some day he would be on the news, WHY didn’t they report him. The same goes for Pima Community College, they just boot him without reporting or requiring a mental evaluation???
Bingo. Yahtzee, Tell him what he’s won Johnny!
Agreed Hark!
He was mad enough a store wouldn’t sell him ammo, why did no one make it part of his record. He was rejected from the military, did no one there think [i]“no way I want to be near this guy in the field”[/i]?
Its like everyone around him realized he was dangerous and decided not to say anything.
PS: Just because its a felony to like pot and guns does not make it dangerous somehow. It wasn’t pot that made him insane..
Also.. addiction is almost impossible since withdrawal symptoms are more mild than with caffeine. And if I am not high or smoking every day who is to say I am “an unlawful user”? More than one cop and a few TSA agents I knew since childhood have been unlawful users of pot in my presence. Even one DEA agent I know admits he enjoyed pot before perusing a military and then law enforcement career.